Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial

Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial

4.80/10 based on 10 votes

In 2004, the Dover school board ordered science teachers to read a statement to high school biology students suggesting that there is an alternative to Darwin’s theory of evolution called intelligent design – the idea that life is too complex to have evolved naturally and therefore must have been designed by an intelligent agent.

The teachers refused to comply. Later, parents opposed to intelligent design filed a lawsuit in federal court accusing the school board of violating the constitutional separation of church and state.

This feature length documentary covers the turmoil that erupted in this community as a result the school board’s decision require the teaching of intelligent design to high school students as well as the famous federal case Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District. The documentary features interviews with key participants on both sides of the debate, ranging from scientists, parents, teachers, and city officials.

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4.80/10 (10 votes)

Discuss This Documentary

95 responses to “Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial”

  1. DisableCain says:

    Intelligent design vs intelligent or unintelligent randomness, which do you choose? Most of us have been brought up on a school diet of evolution without any of the assumptions and critical appraisals pointed out to us. I would say that is bias. Unfortunately, some have internalized the teaching so much that they forget that evolution is only a theory and anyone opposing it must be stupid. I believe that evoution should be taught as a theory, but as in any good teaching, appraisals and weaknesses should be pointed out. Fossils should also be displayed as they are found. Models displayed by experts constructed based on educated guesswork and speculation should be marked as such so as not to confuse a young impressionable mind. Intelligent design may be brought up as a point view during critical appraisal peroids. Not everyone who believe in the bible believe in a literal 6 man days. Children should be taught to think rather than be indoctrinated.

    • Olsen says:

      “Evolution is only a theory”. I hear this over and over again on the Internet’s ongoing debate: evolution vs. creationism. Please note the difference between a scientific theory and the common usage of the word theory – two different things! A scientific theory is the most elaborate form of consistent scientific knowledge not yet disproved by experiment. Sir Isaac Newton published: Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica, (which contains the theory of gravitation) in 1687, which science still use to this date, because it’s not yet disproved by experiment. Is anyone questioning this theory? Otherwise I agree with your points of view :)

      • DC says:

        Has evolution been proven as a fact? I suppose I don’t trust scientist enough to say that they do not throw out information that don’t fit just as they do with weather warming data. I agree that that Newton’s laws do fit in pretty well with observations and applications so far, but how do we know that everything, or maybe some of it(eg distances of galaxies) is not just a mirage. Many things may just appear that way to us earthlings for all I know. What we cannot see or touch may or may not be real but sometimes even what we see may not be real. I do not preclude the possibility that our minds can work in mysterious ways that we do not understand.

        • Olsen says:

          Theories are not facts, but the closest we’ll get to the facts, with the scientific method of proving or explaining the unknown. If Newton’s law fit in pretty well with observations and applications so far, surely Darwin’s theory does the same (?). Especially with science on genetics made hundreds of years later. The reason it’s still valid is the fact that it hasn’t been disproved by experiments, fossil findings or other discoveries, only supported. Regarding scientists tossing information that doesn’t fit, I wouldn’t worry too much. That’s the beauty of science – rewrite the theory with the new information added, and/or use the new information for further scientific testing. Science is dedicated to finding the truth, based on the scientific method – not making things fit into the theory. We (earthlings) still have a lot to learn about ourselves, our origin, the universe etc. but the best way to advance is using science and the scientific method of testing the unknown.

          • DC says:

            I doubt many people disagree that the scientific method as perceived by our limited brain is as far as we are concerned the best method of deducing the truth. Since we are using our methods, it is only the truth as perceived by us. We should also be opened to the possibility that there are other ways of looking at things that we may not perceive as logical but is also a probability. For all we know, many of our logical conclusions regarding the universe may be based on mirages. Just because results from applying the theory or relativity approximates to that of quantum does not mean there are many other factors which have not been taken into consideration but just happened to cancel each other out.
            As for evolution and fossil finds, I believe there are gaps which some people have pointed out. Whether mutations can lead to evolution and can go against the second law of thermodynamics is some point which has been raised. But I wonder why there is a need to evolve at all from the simplest life form when that type of life form is already most adapt at surviving. As far as I am concerned, I don’t have to come to any conclusion. Exploring is the fun part.

    • Jolly Toes says:

      What does religion do? It indoctrinates children into believing in creation, and it gets a 10+ yr head start on schools. I think churches too need to point out flaws in the theory. After all, honesty is a very important part of religion, right? Religion does not teach children to think. What hypocrisy you have.

      • Mike says:

        Teaching children evolution is child abuse!!!

        • Dale says:

          1 Corinthians 2:13-16
          This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgements about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgements, for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?”
          But we have the mind of Christ

      • Patrick says:

        you may be thinking about mainstream Christianity, which doesn’t classify to be real Christianity, but only a watered down message and entertainment to keep people interested in going to church every Sunday. Real Christianity is a tough life, and it involves a heck of alot of thinking, meditating, studying, asking questions, humility, discussing and applying the word to our daily lives. The bible tells us to “dwell in the word richly” (Collosians 3:16), to “meditate on the word day and night” (Psalm 1:2), and applying Christ’s word to our lives does involve alot of thinking..(God did give us a mind for a reason.)

  2. Leigh Brown says:

    Evolution has been proven by science, its is a continuous process to work out the missing pieces which take time.

    I.D is anti – intellectual tripe.
    Wilful ignorance of our Information age.

  3. Patrick says:

    evolution is actually only a theory…and “science” always ends up proving itself wrong, time after time…just ask yourself this simple question…if evolution is real, why are there still monkeys? or why isnt there half-monkey-half-humans walking around? also, what made the universe? dont you think its a bit preposterous to think that this entire universe, 600 billion light years in diameter with all those stars and galaxies, and as intricate as our human bodies alone are, would just come out of nothing??

    • Jason says:

      And religion is only a belief… we can belief what we want , for example , i believe you to not be very smart , and seeing what you have written ( mostly about evolution ) , kinda backs me up .

      Also, I see you don’t know what theory means in science . You do understand that gravity is a ”Theory” .

      ”In the language of science, the word “law” describes an analytic statement. It gives us a formula that tells us what things will do.”
      ”In the language of science, the word “theory” is used to describe an explanation of why and how things happen.”

      For everything coming out of nothing … Have you attempted to find any possible explanation to that ? Multi-verse ? The Possibility that a ”Uni-verse” exists in every singularity ?

      Alas I will give you that science can prove it self wrong , though not always . You see , science likes to be proven wrong , they like to find a better answer that can explain more things correctly . But to answer everything someone doesn’t understand or know with ”God Did It”, cause someone from ancient times with , what now-a-days could only be describe as a mental disorder ( possible schizophrenia ) , kinda puts a person into the same boat as the person/people that came up with the illusion of some spiritual creature with blood lust and insane priorities ( Thou shall not kill , unless they don’t believe in that ”loving god”, don’t do as the ”loving god” would be pleased to see , don’t listen to their master , don’t marry their rapist , the community doesn’t understand that a plague is not witchcraft and that young girls don’t need to be burnt at the stake cause their ”loving god” said witches exists (and should be killed) …. you get the point [ I hope ])

      Research is the key to intelligence , and intelligent design has done none .
      Maybe you should check out ”Horus” , an Egyptian god that existed before your ”God” and see what is similar to ”Jesus” ( And due to the time frame of the 2 beliefs , any similarities would be ”Jesus” coping ”Horus” )

      • Guest says:

        most religions yes, but Christianity is more than just a belief. it is the only book in the entire world that explains how the world came into being, what happened, how God has been working in this world since then, and how it is all gonna end and what we can do to save ourselves from the final judgement. it is also a complete package, and most of the people in it were very godly people, and they had all things in common. once one actually reads with a hungry heart and a discerning mind, one can easily see that it is truly the word of God.
        as for Horus, i beg to differ about him existing before the only real living God, because the bible starts from the very beginning of time, which is estimated to be around 6000BC or so, at which time He actually walked on the earth, until man started to become more and more sinful, then he left and would only come back occasionally.

        • Jason says:

          You must admit that not “all” of the bible is correct, or to be followed. There are passages that talk about sacrificing animals, slavery, witches, mass murder, killing innocents, killing people for working on the wrong days, etc etc..

          How do you distinguish between what is truly gods word, and what is not? Or do you believe people should be killed for working on the Sabbath?

          Is it just some feeling you believe you receive from “god” telling you what is right and wrong? Or do you actually hear a voice?

          If a passage you believe is wrong, someone else believes is right (They get the whole feeling/voice from god) , are they wrong? or are you wrong?

          Do they believe in a false prophet and are hearing the voice of Satan? Or are you?

          If there is only one “Real Living God”, then what religion truly follows its word? Don’t just go and say “Christianity” cause there are a lot of churches that will say they are “Christians” and yet believe you are wrong in many of “your” beliefs. Even to the many denominations (Lutherans, Anglicans, Baptists, etc) you will find that even they do not agree with the teachings of the others. So again, What religion “TRULY” follows the word of the “One Real Living God” ?

          If you say the WBC or the religion that the Nazi’s of world war 2 aligned themselves with… Then maybe you should wonder if this invisible friend of your’s is actually a helping you or is just telling you to burn everything…

          Personally, If I ever have a feeling or hear the voices from some invisible being that is controlling my life, I will visit a psychiatrist rather then a church.

        • GunsmithKitten says:

          And once again, the Bible will only make sense if you’re already inclined to believe it; it doesn’t need to convince you it’s right, and it’ll only appear right if you’re already wanting to believe it’s right. Guh.

          • Dale says:

            You must have a lot more faith than Patrick to believe that we came from nothing opposed to coming from something…..now that’s big faith

            • GunsmithKitten says:

              Did I say I did believe that? No, but there is a gap between believing we may have been designed by something greater than our perceptions and believing word for word the olde English version of a text that makes false predictions, sends mixed messages on many notions of morality, and proclaims that people who do not telepathically accept the “gift” of salvation from someone who was not just God and his own father, but a ghost as well will spend an eternity in torture thanks to being fucked up from birth because the first two humans listened to a talking snake.

      • Patrick says:

        most religions yes, but Christianity is more than just a belief. it is
        the only book in the entire world that explains how the world came into
        being, what happened, how God has been working in this world since then,
        and how it is all gonna end and what we can do to save ourselves from
        the final judgement. it is also a complete package, and the authors were all very godly men (and one woman) with all things in common (the mind of Christ, essentially).
        once one actually reads with a hungry heart and a discerning mind, one
        can easily see that it is truly the word of God.
        as for Horus, i beg
        to differ about him existing before the only real living God, because
        the bible starts from the very beginning of time, which is estimated to
        be around 6000BC or so, at which time He actually walked on the earth,
        until man started to become more and more sinful, then he left and would
        only come back occasionally.

        • Jason says:

          You should read up on other religion’s creation stories . I would have to say just about every religion has a story of creation . Some religions/cultures will also say that the earth was not created but has always existed .

          If someone is to actually read the bible and say that it is truly the word of ”God” , they should wonder why ”God” not only allows slavery , but gives advice on slavery – Exodus 21:2-11

          What about the sacrifice of animals at the alter – Leviticus 8

          ”Thou shalt not kill” – Exodus 20
          – But other parts say who should be killed –
          Exodus 21:29
          Numbers 15:32-36
          Exodus 22:18-19

          There are more , but I’m to lazy to look for them .

          A good part to take from the bible for how the world was created is Genesis 1:6-8 about how ”God” created a firmament to separate the waters below and above the firmament ( to which the firmament is called heaven ) , These all are taken from the King James Bible , but others call this ”Firmament” the sky .. For a person to say this is truly the word of god and how the world was created , do they actually believe that there is water above the sky ? I can understand this from the perspective of someone living in the early times to explain why it rains . But nowadays through science , we understand why it rains .

          How can someone nowadays believe any religion when we have the mind and ability to find out better reasons to why things exists or something does something , to answer any difficult question with ”GOD” or to say someones answer is wrong with ”It’s not in the bible” ”God wouldn’t do that” or ”The bible say’s your wrong” is downgrading of ones own ability to think for themselves . Yeah , you could go on and say I do the same with science , but science allows to demonstrate how and why it says something . The theory of General Relativity ( The theory of Gravity ) tells us why everything is held to the earth , and we can use this theory to keep satellites in space , how to get rockets off the ground and why our planet doesn’t go crashing into the sun , or sky-rocketing into outer space .

          The theory of General Relativity can be used also to explain how our world , the moon , the other planets and the sun came to exists from space dust , meteors and other junk in space . Just think what people in ancient times would think be the reason they are ”stuck” to the ground , and explains why the sun comes up each day and why there is a moon . One good example for what these people would think is the ”Bible” .

          • Patrick says:

            The fact that God exists, and we were created by something we will never be able to fully understand, means that we will never be able to figure out the truth by our own means. We are ignorant human beings and always will be. God does what He does because He cares for his children, simple as that. It dos sound confusing, but if you read the bible you might get a clearer picture on what that is all about. Also, There is beauty and safety in not knowing certain things. I don’t think God wants us to know certain things because if we knew, we would use it to our own destruction…which reminds me of how much we as humans screw things up already, and we don’t know anything.

            • GunsmithKitten says:

              If he loves his children why is there an “elect” at all? Dont’ get me wrong, I actually find the idea of an “elect” rather liberating, as it means that those of us not of the elect have no motivation to change our ways and are free to do as we will, as we will never be redeemed regardless.

              And I’ve read the Bible, many many times. Grow up in the household I did, and you had to know it or else.

              • Patrick says:

                There is a right way at interpreting the bible, most of the world has it wrong, or are just ignorant. and it is for those who have ears to hear, those who believe. If you are interested in hearing a true christian preach, check out illbehonest(.)com.

                ps. God’s children are those who love Him.

                • Paul says:

                  *The world has it wrong*

                  Have you even considered that you’re the one who could be wrong?

                • Patrick says:

                  Again I’ll say I’m not saying I’m infallible and I am sorry for coming off a bit arrogant, but there is only one interpretation, point blank. God made it so there would be one meaning, it wouldn’t make logical sense for it to have anything more than that. I’ll repeat what I said above and say that anyone who is a true christian will tell you the same meaning for the basic teachings of Christ, so don’t take my word for it. Ask around, study the bible for yourself, see what you get out of it. Don’t just read it like any other book though, it has to be read with a hungry heart an open mind, or else the intellect will get in the way and block it out (hense we go back to what Jesus said, “whoever has ears let them hear”.

                • Ed says:

                  And yet other people with enormous faith and the patience to give a lifetime to the study of the bible have come to radically different conclusions than you.

                  I HAVE asked around. Only an arrogant person who has no doubts about the infallibility of their own views would consider their way the only true way. Everyone has doubts. Even Jesus (“Why hast thou forsaken me?”) doubted in moments. So who are you to have no doubt in your own interpretation of the Bible. You have no shame. You’re, quite frankly, a heretic.

                • James J. says:

                  There’s a major problem with your entire argument Patrick.

                  Whoever has ears to hear let him hear, is indeed a line from the bible.

                  There is also another line. How can he hear without a teacher/preacher/whatever you want to call him, how can he teach/preach/etc unless he be sent?

                  SO basically, the Bible says you are free to hear if you want, but you *have* to find a person who is a unique prophet like back in the days of Elijah and so forth. Okay, that’s still good.


                  If we can’t tell *on our own* what the proper word is, how can we tell who is telling the truth sent from God, and who is a false prophet? Elijah and the other prophets of old caused miracles. Miracles go a long way in showing that you have actual power because of your connection. So that works.

                  Two new problems:

                  1. No priests today perform any real miracles. When science shows up to test and prove their miracles they “can’t do them right then”. Prophets/priests of old could do a miracle on command. Elijah didn’t have to wait to do a miracle. Those kids were messing with him, he cursed them and summoned a bear to eat them (or maybe it was a lion, doesn’t matter).

                  2. Even if you find a person who can do a miracle, how do you know they’re real? The egyptian priests matched Moses miracle for miracle until the last one. The movies don’t show that because they are developed for the masses and they don’t want to show the Egyptian Gods as having real power, they like to show them as fake graven images. But the bible *does* say that they duplicated every miracle Moses performed. In that case, either they *are* real, or the miracles were fake, and they also knew the same trick which makes sense since Moses grew up as a prince of Egypt and could have easily had the same training their priests had. People like to forget that. Then: The reason they couldn’t copy the last miracle? Easy, it was something he learned from his wife’s people. You poison the banquet with a poison that only works in high doses. Poison *all* the food with it. In Egypt, the oldest son got that largest portion. Only they ingest enough to die, the rest have no problems.

                • Patrick says:

                  1 John 4:1-6
                  Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see
                  whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into
                  the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that
                  confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every
                  spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit
                  of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world
                  already. Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for
                  he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are from
                  the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to

                • Ed says:

                  Are you infallible, Patrick?

                • Ed says:

                  You speak of your interpretation of the bible being the only correct interpretation possible. As though you believe yourself and your thinking infallible. As if you believe yourself to be God himself, with all of the wisdom in the world. Are you God Patrick? Because, only if you were, could you possibly know that your interpretation of the Bible is 100% correct.

                • Patrick says:

                  I’m not sure, if God is real, why He would make a book that had multiple meanings. I mean, the basic teachings of Jesus can be interpreted only one way. It is up to the mind of the listener to take it or leave it or twist it to his own meaning, and that basically all relies on how much of a threat it is to his life…that’s why Jesus said “Whoever has ears, let them hear” (Mark 4:9), and the whole purpose of Him speaking in parables. I am sorry for being a little arrogant and saying most of the world has the interpretation wrong, I should have said most of the world doesn’t abide in these words, and it is reflected in the mainstream church today. it is even says in scripture “For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:14) I cannot say that I can interpret every single verse in the bible, but I understand the basic and most important teachings. I’m not sure anyone in the world can interpret the entire bible, there’s just too much to learn…but God is great and it is still possible there might be a few out there.
                  As for the comment about me being God, I’m just taking all of this from the Bible, the interpretation is plain to anyone with ears to hear. When you study it heard enough, you begin to see that the messages are pretty simple and easy to understand. But an ignorant and closed mind cannot decipher it, simply because one would rather not put in the time and effort it takes, or maybe they just really do not believe and cannot hear the words.

                • Ed says:

                  So you have no doubts. You’re God. Copy that.

          • Ed says:

            we can launch satalites, but what about the other stars and planets? Sattalites also require intligence. Plus the,man behind the “theory” of gravity, Newton, was a Godly man. He knew that God was the reason for gravity. Maybe you should follow his example.

    • GunsmithKitten says:

      If science always ends up wrong, how does this electrical surge powering this thing I’m typing on keep flowing so reliably? Seems like the electricians did a pretty damn good job.

      • Patrick says:

        science is based on theory, and from my understanding, it is meant to prove itself wrong over time because they come up with new theories time and time again. it is a form of playing God, trying to figure Him out by the wisdom of man. just because we were able to harness the power of electricity doesn’t mean that the theory behind how it works and why can’t be proven wrong.

        • Ed says:


        • Ed says:

          Actually, you misunderstand science completely. Yes, theories are wrong sometimes and are proven to be so over time. But not all of science is theory. There are also facts, provable and observable.

          Evolution is a fact, not a theory. We know for a fact, for example, that cows used to generally have smaller udders than the cows we have now to produce milk. Human beings selected, year after year, the cows with the largest udders, because they could produce more milk. Those cows were kept, they reproduced. Over time, those genes were passed along and EVOLVED into the cows we have now. There are hundreds of examples just like the cow, of artificial selection. There is also natural selection, species that are best suited to the environment, pass along their genes, and over time they evolve. This is not a theory. This is observable, documented fact.

          Now, there are elements of Darwin’s studies that are theoretical (although not terribly controversial amongst most scientists), but not the fact of evolution itself. That species of animals and plants evolve is fact.

          Now, nothing in evolution proves or disproves the existence of God. People do believe in God, and accept the fact that species of animals and plants evolve through natural and artificial selection.

          You can believe, I suppose (and some do), that there is an intelligent designer of the process itself. I suppose no one can prove or disprove that. But you cannot argue that evolution is not a factual process. It is clearly a fact. We can watch it happen in a lifetime. It is most clearly observable when humans are doing the selecting because it is being observed and measured in those instances to begin with. But it is also observable when things are being naturally selected by their environmental circumstances.

          So again, there is no proof or proof against an intelligent designer of the entire process I suppose. You can believe that or not. I do not.

          But you cannot with any credibility claim that evolution is a theory that we can believe in or not. It is fact. And if you choose not to believe it you are denying reality. If you believe in God then you are denying a God-given reality. You are spitting in the face of the creator by denying his works, which in this case are factual, measurable, and provable.

          • Guest says:

            No, evolution is a theory. It’s even in the name, “theory of evolution”. In science, a theory is a well-supported explanation of observed facts. A good theory should explain what we can see and predict future behavior. The observable facts in this case include the fossil record, genetic examination of ourselves and various animals, and observed instances of natural selection. The theory is that this is how all modern life has developed over hundreds of millions of years. Please keep your facts and your theories straight. It’s not quite as bad as dismissing it as “just a theory” (you know, like gravity), but it shows the exact same type of misunderstanding of what a theory is.

        • GunsmithKitten says:

          You act like religion never finds it’self faulty either. The multiple reformations, the divide of the Roman Catholic church, Martin Luther, the fact that there are over 1000 sects of Christianity in existence, let alone other faiths, ect…

          Also, you treat science like a set philosophy and not a PROCESS. Science is not a dogma. Science is not a set of ideals or teachings. It’s a process of using information that you’ve already gathered and observed.

          Science says; “Here is the data. What can we discern from it? Religion says “Here are the conclusions, what can we find that will support it?”

          • Patrick says:

            True Christianity is based on the Bible, and it is the ultimate authority for the true religion. The reason why there are so many sects and denominations and why the reformation had to happen (and why there is another one going on in the past 50 years or so) was because of Satan’s (or man’s, if you will) meddling. If you take a look at the Catholic church, it doesn’t look at all like what Jesus was teaching, simply because man has messed it all up and ditched the bible. They do not worship God, they worship the devil in a matter of speaking. Also, if true Christianity is real (and I believe it is) then that would mean it is very disturbing and threatening to everyone on this earth, and it changes everything, so man would love nothing better to do then hide it under a bunch of false doctrines, whitewashed messages about how “if you just say Jesus is Lord you will be saved”, “give us money and you’re sins are forgiven”, and with all the useless rituals and traditions and huge buildings built with blood money.
            Dogma has to be real because if there wasn’t anything solid about how this world and universe came into being, we wouldn’t even be here to debate this because this universe would cease to exist. The fact is, it is a solid intricately designed universe, that had to have been created by a solid intelligent designer. We cannot make a robot without intelligence, and we cannot get something out of nothing, just like a seed does not just miraculously sprout a plant or even a tree, some powerful force with immense intelligence has to be behind it. The seed does not appear out of nowhere for no reason….and there is only one place you’ll find the answer to this universe, in a solid book that has stood the test of time, that has been translated into almost every language on the face of the earth, and is in almost every country in the world, and is the most widely distributed book in the entire planet. It also has never been taken from or added to, (except for a few false translations, which was bound to happen sooner or later) (and by the way, the dead sea scrolls and other books were omitted for valid reasons).

            • GunsmithKitten says:

              Stood the test of time how? The Tao Te Ching is still followed and distributed, and it can trace it’s origins back to long before the Bible was finally compiled.

              And before you give me the prophecy argument, I’ll remind you that the Bible prophesied the fall of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar, even though the single time he invaded Egypt he was soundly defeated. It also prophesized the destruction of Damascus, even though every siege on the city was ultimately broken.

              • James J. says:

                Really? I’m on your side in this argument, but I never knew about those. Have a reference you could share? Also, nice avatar and name. Now I have to re-watch Gunsmith Catz

    • James J. says:

      Actually I find it harder to believe that a supreme super-powerful, all knowing, all wise, and yet loving (instead of cruel or overbearing and all kinds of other bad character traits) and *perfect* being came into existence out of nothing. It would be more believable for a flawed universe to come out of nothing and for perfection (a gold-like being) to only show up at the end of it after countless millennia of evolution. Perfection arising from hard work, constant refinement, rather than spontaneously existing.

      You say God always was. Science says matter/energy always was. One I can see and prove. One I cannot. Both make the same claim. I’ll take the one I see, thank you.

      • thereforeiam says:

        I guess it comes down wether intelligence created matter or matter created intelligence. What I see now, lifeless matter is unable to create any sort of intelligence.

    • VideoEyes says:


    • Gray Olson says:

      I see a half-monkey, half-human walking around, and his name is “Guest”… And to answer your last question, it didn’t come from “nothing.” The latest theories say that it probably all began with everything in the universe as pure energy and all condensed into a single point, at which point it exploded and began expanding. In a process called cosmic evolution (which is completely different from darwinian evolution), the galaxies, etc. that we observe today came to be through the natural laws of science.

    • Nodws says:

      The idiots don’t know that a Scientific Theory is build upon a cluster of FACTS in reality, it should be Called a LAW, as in the Law of Gravity like we call it around the globe in other languages.

  4. Patrick says:

    read the bible, it will tell you all you need to know.

    • Jolly Toes says:

      Will it tell me what I need to explore the ocean or go to the moon? Can it assist me with air conditioning or heat? No. I need science, but I don’t need the bible.

      • Patrick says:

        nothing is possible without God, so yes you do need the bible. it is our only hope of surviving death. it is the only book that has stood the test of time, and is still the most widely distributed book ever. and as for heat and a/c, one can shelter oneself easily without the need of such devices. and exploration of ocean and moon, please tell me what real good can come out of that? this world is falling a part at the seems and we as a species are hopeless in stopping a supernatural force so great. we cant even solve world hunger because we’re so damn greedy and sinful. wake from your slumber or sleeper.

      • Guest says:

        will science help you after death?

        • Jolly Toes says:

          Science may help us conquer death one day. I figure the human race as we know it has given god over 10,000 years to defeat death for us. Obviously that’s not working. But science on the other hand, through knowledge and proven data, has increased our life span by at least 3 decades on average. After I am dead I won’t need help. I will be dead. I will be nothing and nowhere or everything and everywhere. Who knows? I choose not to believe a book. I think that it is the epitome of gullibility to think that the bible was not carefully crafted and worded and changed over time by man. Did you know that ‘Quotations from Chairman Mao Tse-Tung’ is the second most read book of all time? Does that mean it must be full of nothing but sage wisdom? Probably not.
          Instead of continuing your life as you always have, complaining and waiting for a supernatural being to come and make everything better, why don’t you take an active role in improving our world?

          • Mike says:

            Everything man has tried to accomplish has basically failed. did we get from going to the moon. satellite tv and microwaves. Science. please give me a break. Evolution is not Science it’s garbage. God is Science. Every time man figures out 2 plus 2 equals 4 he thinks he owns it. God owns everything. You should thank him for every breath you take. And you should thank our Christian forefathers for you even sharing your opinion.

            • GunsmithKitten says:

              You mean the Christian forefathers who wrote a Bill of Rights that contradicts several biblical teachings (Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me, yet we allow freedom of religion; one state was even founded on it). And if everything man tried has failed, how do you explain the very medium on which you are communicating ?

      • Patrick says:

        will science help you conquer death?

        • Bazz Boozz says:

          why did God make cancer??

          • Patrick says:

            Im quite sure that was Satan

            • Guest says:

              Enlighten us on who made satan then…?

              • Guest says:

                God created him,

                “You were blameless in your ways
                from the day you were created
                till wickedness was found in you.
                Through your widespread trade
                you were filled with violence,
                and you sinned.
                So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
                and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
                from among the fiery stones.”
                (Ezekiel 28:15-16)

                • James J. says:

                  You can’t excuse God from making Lucifer by saying he went bad on his own. If God knows all, including the future, then he knew exactly who and what he was making. Not only that, he must have *wanted* Lucifer to do what he did. He just needed a nice scapegoat for all his own evil needs.

            • saucy jack says:

              Why did god make satan?

        • GunsmithKitten says:

          It did for me. I’m alive today because of techniques developed by medical science.

    • John says:

      Why are you taking offense because people don’t believe in god?

      Why does it bother you what other people think?

      How will what other people think affect what you believe?

      I’m asking you these questions because i want to know
      what your answer is not what is written in the bible.

      • Patrick says:

        I am not taking offense, that is an assumption.

        What others think does not affect what I believe in the least. I am only here to spread the Good News.

        My answer is simple. Jesus Christ.

        • John says:

          Well it looked like you was when people commented about religion won’t cure diseases

          We will never know if god exists or not because we will never die and live to witness it we only have hearsay to go by which to be honest wouldn’t stand a chance as evidence in any courtroom.

          • John says:

            I’m not saying that anyone is right or wrong because everyone has a right to a opinion what i am saying is that it is wrong to force people into believing what they believe rather than letting them make up their own minds

            Did you choose to believe in god out of your own free will or was you brought up to believe in god a lot of people are brought up in life to follow the family believes regardless of what they want to believe

            Its not a belief if you was brought up to do it its a habit, if you tell people something is bad and repeating it over and over one day it will stick and people will actually start to believe it

            • Patrick says:

              I came to Christ over the course of a lifetime really. I was baptized as a baby, went to church a few times, didn’t want to go anymore, so my mom took us out. 10 years ago I turned to the bible, and didn’t buy into it so chucked it away and did some other research (drugs, alcohol, other religions/philosophies/beliefs), which never worked, and this time around I came across some conspiracy theories online, saw how messed up the world really was and needed a solution because I was broken because of what I saw. That was 2 months ago. Then up popped a video out of nowhere from this guy Tim Conway from illbehonest(.)com and I was instantly convinced that the Bible in it’s entirety was really true afterall and Christ really was God. I truly believe the Holy Spirit was working on me that day, in the only time it could, when I was vulnerable and broken, with no hope. Since then I have been putting all the pieces together and it’s a neverending journey, and more joy and peace comes from it all the time. It’s not an easy life, life is hard, it wasn’t meant to be easy, but I know I’m headed in the right direction now and am promised the greatest gift of all: eternal life.

    • Bazz Boozz says:

      lol your further remarks only proof that religion really wants you to stop thinking..Just remember dont take no medicine when your sick cause thats science!! Just say an prayer!!

      • Patrick says:

        you are right, i do believe that sickness is not to be treated with a pill…i never take pills, and im as healthy as anything. sickness comes and it goes, just like everything else in this world. i need something that sticks, someone Who is permanent. that is my only solution.

        as for thinking, we are told very often to think actually. if you read the bible you would know this. we are told to meditate day and night (on the Word), and to pray without ceasing. that involves a heck of alot of thinking.

        • GunsmithKitten says:

          Here’s to hoping you never sustain a traumatic injury then. You’ll need science to stop that internal bleeding.

          Also, when I was a Christian, I was around plenty of people who thought as you did. Disease claimed them, it didn’t “come and go” like you say it will. They didn’t end up “healthy as anything.” Were they just not as pious as you?

  5. Mike says:

    We understand a lot more today about Christianity today. It amazes me how people keep clinging to the mistakes of the past concerning God. How about Scientist of the past. Most of the advances in Science were mostly Christian Scientist. I’ll tell you this and this is a fact. There is no other true faith other than believing in Jesus Christ. If you don’t accept this as truth please don’t leave your house. Oh yea you could get electrocuted by your xbox.

    • GunsmithKitten says:

      I leave my house plenty and don’t accept this as truth.

      And good thing I own a PS3 instead of an Xbox, eh?

    • Dale says:

      Jesus did say, “I am the truth, and the way, and the life.” John 14:6 But he also said, “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” Mathew 5:44

  6. Paul says:

    Fairies are real. As are leprechauns and trolls and god and superman. All exist is the imagination of human beings.

  7. Paul says:

    If god exists, why did he make atheists? In fact, surely he would have made everybody christian right? Wrong. In the vast majority of cases a person’s religion is a direct result of where they happened to be born. Pure chance. In other words there is no such thing as a christian baby – Christianity and all other religions are forced upon individuals as he/she grows up, during which time these beliefs are socially reinforced, eliminating the chance of growing out of them.

    You grow out of believing in Santa, or fairies or leprechauns because their belief is not socially reinforced in Schools, by family members or by society.

    I was baptised as an infant, obviously against my will, and encouraged by almost every aspect of my environment to believe in a book, written by fellow human beings, over 2000 years ago. I consider myself lucky that I can now think for myself and don’t necessarily have to go along with what is the “norm” or what is expected.

    Atheism is liberating. Enlightening. Beautiful.

    • Patrick says:

      Free thinking is chaos, insanity, directionless. What might I ask do you plan on doing when you are passed on? Christianity has actually been taken out of schools and whitewashed and manipulated in churches and catholic schools, and is the cause of the current chaos in America today. The bible has been around for well over 1500 years, is in every country in the world, is probably translated in almost every single language, and has not been messed with at all, despite the evil in the world today and those who seek to destroy it. It remains in tact, complete and unscathed. How is this so? When the bible is preached in a truthful way (talking about both sides of the coin, heaven and hell, which Jesus actually preached about both sides as well, these people are mocked, ridiculed, and very much alot of the time thrown in jail, but yet the bible is the most widely “accepted” book in the world….

      Psalms 2:1-3-

      Why do the nations rage
      and the peoples plot in vain?
      The kings of the earth set themselves,
      and the rulers take counsel together,
      against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying,
      “Let us burst their bonds apart
      and cast away their cords from us.”

      Does it make sense that this world was created out of nothing, by no one, and all life is evolved out of nothing as well? That would mean we were once rocks…doesn’t that sound silly to you? How can you create this awesome earth, all it’s creatures, with it’s precise intricacy, plus all the stars and planets and galaxies, also with impeccable precision (if anything was off a hairline, all would collapse), and have it come out of nothing? Do you know, science cannot prove why a human body dies? It is supposed to go on forever, but some unknown phenomena actually causes it to degenerate over time. That my friend, is where we go to the precious bible for the answer:

      Adam was commanded by God in the Garden of Eden not to eat of the tree of knowledge…but, he still lived until he was 950 years old…

      Genesis 2:17 – but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

      St. Paul urged the Romans to turn away for their sin, and gave an explanation of the penalty of sin, and gave a solution…

      Romans 6:23- “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

      So, we see that death is supernatural, and is caused by death, and the only cure is Jesus Christ, the Lord and Saviour, and also (I bet you never knew this) is the Creator of this earth as well. :) God actually created the earth thru Jesus.

      • Paul says:

        I’ve contemplated writing a lengthy, detailed, rational reply but there really isn’t any point. You’re welcome to your beliefs which, by the way, you’ve gained by pure chance. Quoting your contradictory fictional book has absolutely no impact on me. You, like all religious people, choose the passages which suit and dispose of the rest. You’re a perfect example of how easy it is for the church, and state, to continue their legacy of brainwashing and control. Frankly, I find it extremely sad. However if you’re happy then who I am to judge. All I ask is that you don’t force your beliefs upon others – and do not label free thinkers as insane, chaotic or directionless as they are the ones moving our civilisation forward. You claim that there’s no scientific explanation for death and have the ignorance to use this as an argument for the existence of your God, for whom there isn’t a stroke of scientific proof. Contradictory? And anyone who believes the earth is no more than 10,000 years old as opposed to the proven 4.54 Billion, in my opinion, shouldn’t be taken seriously by any logical, intelligent, rational human being. I suppose you think your god planted dinosaur bones and fossils, dating from millions of years ago, in the ground to test your faith?

        One last thing. You left out this quote.

        – Deuteronomy 28:15:
        “But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee”

        Your God loves everyone unconditional? I’d rather believe in a mythical fairy than in your mythical dictator.

        But as I said, if you are happy, then I am happy for you :)

        • Patrick says:

          Most science is still theory, look it up. Evolution is proven? I’m not sure how you come to that conclusion. Logic would tell you that a rock cannot produce cells, that should be enough evidence. As for dinosaur bones, I do believe there were dinosaurs, just not in the way man has described them. They were definitely real at one point, but I believe were wiped out during the flood. As for the Deuteronomy quote, that was specifically meant for the people in that day and age. I stated that God loves HIS people, that ones that have faith in His Son. The ones who do not abide in Him are not His…but that doesn’t mean that you are doomed, you can always choose to let Him in, it’s your decision to keep on believing the world, when this world is clearly not going very far with all the destruction that we have caused (and it only is going to get worse, unless the powers that be decide to turn back and give themselves up to the God they so dishonored). What is gonna happen when the oil runs out? The rich keep gettin richer and the poor keep getting poorer, another thing that bible points out. When the stuff hits the fan and the powers that be are not there to help us out anymore, what are you going to do? Greed is a sin, and God will have His judgment, and He is to this day.

          As for me and why I spread this stuff is because God has told those who have faith in Him to spread the good news to every nation, and to take up our crosses and follow Him. Science cannot help us spiritually and it will never be able to. It can help us physically, but it can’t cure disease or illness that is caused by sin, and most of it is caused by sin. I have heard so many stories of people going into complete remission from cancer after giving themselves over to the Lord. Explain that, science definitely will never be able to.

          • Paul says:

            You’re telling me to look up scientific theory? You clearly don’t know much about science. You are correct that most science is “theory”, however a Scientific Theory is so called because research, experiments, and calculations are constantly ongoing, building upon decades of knowledge, and therefore moving our civilsation forward.

            “A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on knowledge that has been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experimentation.”

            Note repeatedly confirmed. Calling something a fact implies that we know everything about that subject which is completely naive and simply foolish.

            Having said all of that, it amazes me at how contradictory you are. You dismiss, ignorantly, century’s of scientific research as mere “theories” in the common sense of the word and yet fail to account for any scientific evidence whatsoever on the existence of your God? You also imply that 5 billion people (world population 7.1 Billion minus christian population 2.1 Billion) are doomed for not abiding by your God. She sounds like the most savagely cruel dictator imaginable.
            Also, man has not “described” dinosaur fossils. Man has discovered, dated and verified the age of fossils, the oldest of which dates back 3.4 billion years. Can I ask how old you believe they are?

            I won’t be entertaining this conversation as from now. You can’t talk rationally and logically with closed minded, ignorant people. I wish you all the best in life, but am glad the majority of people (at least here in Europe) are “seeing the light” and turning their backs on a centuries old method of control, domination and wealth.


        • Dale says:

          You believe there is no God, ok..
          Why go through so much effort to prove people wrong, everyone has a right to believe in what they want, after all God gave us free will…If you want to believe in fairies so be it, its your decision after all my friend…

          • Paul says:

            Did “God” gave us the free will to blow people up in her name? Or to discriminate against women in her name? To stone innocent people to death in it’s name? If everybody who believed in God were like you (I’m assuming you’re a good, honest person like most of us are) I wouldn’t be writing here.
            But sadly this “God” for which there isn’t the slightest bit of physical evidence for is too often used as an excuse for violence, torture and death. Of course I’m not saying that by eliminating god we’ll eliminate violence – but it would make the world a much more harmonious place to live in.

            Also, I’m not trying to prove anybody wrong. By doing so would assume that those people have reasonable, logical and rational arguments in the first place. But without the slightest bit of physical evidence for the existence of God the onus is on believers to prove yourselves right and until such time we have every right to ask questions. You don’t merely accept that leprechauns exist because society doesn’t emphasis or reinforce their existence. In fact you’d looked down upon for believing in such nonsense.

            I do not “believe” that God doesn’t exist. I do not “believe” that fairies don’t exist. I do not “believe” that there are giant spaghetti monsters floating around on the bottom of the sea. They just do not exist.

            Why do you assume that we are here to serve a purpose? That there has to be a reason for our existence? I find that extremely arrogant.

            I live my life to the full. I take nothing for granted. I make the most of every day and strive to achieve the goals I have set for myself. I treat others in the way which I like to be treated. I consider myself extremely lucky to have this chance to live, to feel, to love and I when I die I’ll do so knowing I had a bloody great time. We are all perfectly capable of living this way without a “God” to hold our hands.

            • Dale says:

              sometimes you don’t need proof, just faith. What proof do I need when I believe.

              I have faith in what Jesus has done and is doing in peoples lives is true and good. I don’t need any proof of that.

              Unless you welcome Jesus into your life then you cannot understand it … there is no point trying to use your own understanding in this, you wont get anywhere, human understanding will just keep you going around in circles asking questions and trying to prove everything.

              Continue living life to the full and strive to achieve the goals, after all, its your choice the way you live your life.
              My friend, believe in what you will, it is your choice but please know for those of us who have accepted Christ, nothing! and I mean nothing! will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
              I like you Paul, you really are passionate…I have told you my point of opinion and you have told me yours… lets leave it at that, we wont get anywhere otherwise.

              • Paul says:

                I like you too, Dale, you seem like a decent person. And I’m glad that you’re comfortable with your faith.

                I think I should add some very important information about myself. I’m from southern Ireland. I still live in a small rural town where the majority of people over the age of 40 are devote Catholics (as with much of western Europe, religion is dying out in younger generations – mainly due to better education systems which allow and encourage free thinking). I was brought to mass every Sunday until I was 16 and I too had “welcomed Jesus into my life” in a very big way. I understand “it” far better than you assume and I can tell you that I am much happier now than I was under “the love of God”.

                The difference in this country (and in all of western Europe) is that atheists are not seen as demons, or “devil worshipers” or in any other negative light. They are often part of religious families, sons and daughters of religious parents (both of my parents and grandparents are church going Catholics), and are treated with the same amount of respect and courtesy as everybody else. Therefore, as there is no stigma attached to being an atheist here, and because there is less and less social and cultural reinforcement of religious faith, one can almost say that people are starting to “grow out” of their beliefs.

                It always amuses me that at a certain age the idea of a man who flies around the world in a slay pulled by flying reindeer becomes totally absurd and you cease to believe in it. Yet it is completely plausible, for people of faith, that guardian angels are sent from heaven and follow you around protecting you from harm. Sound hypocritical?

                I only seek the truth. If something doesn’t ad up I question it. Santa doesn’t ad up. Fairies don’t ad up. Garden gnomes don’t ad up. We all know and widely accept this. Yet a man in the sky who created us all, and is capable of watching all 7 billion people on earth at the same time (creepy) to make sure we’re following his rule book is supposed to be accepted without question because it says so in a book? Can you not see how absurd that is?

    • Dale says:

      If you believe GOD doesn’t exist, why are you asking those questions.
      You have a lot of faith believing that we exist for no purpose and no reason, you have more faith than me and I believe we were created for a purpose by a God.
      Big Faith my friend….Big Faith…..

  8. Rich says:

    The bible, even with it’s many contradictions is still the ONLY thing close to proof we’ll ever have of our existence. It’s the oldest surviving physical record of actual human existence. Science should be praised. Evolution should not. I refuse to believe we A. came from apes and B. have been here for billions of years. I say this because why would it take billions of years to get where we are in life when in just the last 100 years we have made such immense advances? I can only see this happening in a world that has been around for only thousands of years, hence, making the Bible’s explanation much more realistic. P.S. People say scientists have proven evolution. Unless anyone living is thousands or billions of years old then there is NO WAY TO PROVE ANYTHING! No matter what you believe in. “Fact” is not always fact.

    • GunsmithKitten says:

      Except NATURAL SELECTION does not and never has taught that we come from apes.

      Biology also doesn’t always follow the same route technology does thanks to a little something called accumulated knowledge.

    • Paul says:

      “The bible, even with it’s many contradictions is still the ONLY thing close to proof we’ll ever have of our existence.”

      “Unless anyone living is thousands or billions of years old then there is
      NO WAY TO PROVE ANYTHING! No matter what you believe in. “Fact” is not
      always fact”


      Do you understand the meaning of contradictions?

    • Epicurus says:

      almost everything you said here is objectively false.

      The bible is NOT the only thing close to proof we have of our existence….that doesnt even make sense.

      It isnt even CLOSE to the oldest surviving physical record of human existence.

      we have advanced so much in 100 years because we discovered something that propelled our advancements, namely sources of energy like coal and oil. Before that life advanced at the same pace you see it advance in nature. Sometimes there are environmental changes which cause mass extinctions which allow room for other organisms to evolve suddenly and fill those niches.

      Evolution is proven because of the practical applications based on it. Our medicine and agriculture namely. without our understanding of natural selection and gene drift and allele frequencies we would not be able to produce crops on the scales we do nor would we have the medicines we have today.

      Just because you are uneducated doesnt mean you should spread that nonsense to other people.

    • Saucy Jack says:

      Everything you just said is bullshit….

    • Also says:

      Also, there is the fact that the Church, and the monarchies that they supported, especially in Europe were preventing the dissemination of knowledge to a certain extent for quite some time. (Even if they were providing teaching it was very much limited to what the Church deemed correct.) Just take a look at the history of pre-revolutionary France. It took the development of the printing press, for the dissemination of knowledge to occur,and overthrowing the Church before the renaissance could actually start.

  9. Dale says:

    1 Corinthians 2:13-16
    This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgements about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgements, for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?”
    But we have the mind of Christ.

    • Paul says:

      Isn’t that very convenient.

      How nice of them to write it in the book for you. Hope it makes you feel better.

  10. XxXAnimuHeroXxX says:

    Based EE-sama; have mercy on these heathens, for they know not what they speak.

  11. Gray Olson says:

    This whole thing that the school board member and all the defendants keep saying is that evolution is “just a theory” and that it’s “not science law or fact,” is making me so angry. In scientific terms, “theory” means something completely different from what it does in every day conversation. In everyday conversation, theory means something that someone has thought up in their head to explain something. In science, a theory is an explanation of a phenomenon that has been tested and evidenced thoroughly (THROUGH FACTS AND LAWS) enough to prove that beyond reasonable doubt it is true. This means that, in science, theory is effectively HIGHER on the scale than a fact or a law.

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